I recently received a question from Chris Rayner, as it is such a common issue I thought I would share it with everyone. Thanks for the question Chris, hope this helps to answer it for you:
Hi, I have a big problem. My Tiler has just started to grout the lovely porcelain tiles in my new kitchen using dark grout on the pale tiles. But the grout has stained the tiles! On close inspection the box of the tiles says they should be sealed and the company accepts no responsibility. Can I get the dark grout out of the tiles? We have already tried HG Cement Grout film remover. Thanks, Chris…
Hopefully, this will help, but a lot depends on the tile and grout:
Firstly, the problem arises due to tiny, microscopic holes in the surface of the porcelain, These are like air bubbles under the surface which, when the tile is polished (which means grinding away the surface until smooth) have their tops taken off, thus we get small irregular holes, not always big enough to see with the naked eye, but certainly big enough to become filled with grout.
Now imagine lots of these little holes all filling up with grout, in the same way that lots of tiny pixels make up a digital image, lots of these filled holes make up the appearance of a stain. The problem is that it can be very difficult, and I’m afraid, in some cases, almost impossible to remove.
The diagram below shows the holes in a standard porcelain:
In the next diagram the dotted line indicates the amount of tile that will be removed during the polishing process. As you can see, the polishing will ‘take the tops off’ the holes:
In the last diagram, you can see that the newly exposed holes can now be filled with the grout to create the staining effect you see:
The grout is usually made up of three basic components: Cement, sand and a man-made, synthetic latex or polymer. Grouts may also be tinted with a pigment. The micro-pores are not normally big enough to accept the sand grains so they usually become filled with pigmented cement and or the polymer.
If you were dealing with just a cement (no polymer) then the product you have tried might well have done the trick – a standard mild acid cleaner (that one is based on a dilute phosphoric acid which is ok, please avoid cleaners based on hydrochloric acid or HCL). However, often there is a combination of polymer and the pigmented cement. This creates a problem because we cannot simply rely on an acidic cleaner as the polymer shields the cement from the acid, rendering it ineffective.
So we also need to use a solvent to go after the polymer. A solvent-based sealer stripper will soften and break down the polymer, while it is in this state we can use the acid to attack the now less protected cement. In the worst cases we would also consider adding a micro-abrasive cleaner like Microscrub. We do this for two reasons, the nano-technology will allow the liquids we are using (that is the solvent stripper and phosphoric Acid type cleaner) to ‘relax’ and penetrate the micro pores more effectively. And secondly, the abrasive particles will help to safely grind out the grout without damaging the tile.
Here is the procedure I would recommend you try:
- Sweep or vacuum the floor
- Apply your solvent stripper NEAT and spread over the floor
- Leave the stripper to dwell for between 30 minutes and 1 hour, keep it wet with more solvent if required
- Now mix the cement residue cleaner (based on phosphoric acid or similar, NOT HCL) water (between 1:5 and 1:10) and ADD it to the solution of the stripper while still on the floor
- Leave both solutions for a few more minutes then agitate with a white nylon pad
- At this stage add in a small amount of Microscrub – you may notice some fizzing – this will be the acidic cleaner reacting with the calcium in the Microscrub but this should be minimal as the acid should be nearly exhausted or ‘spent’ having reacted with the cement in the grout. We are adding the Microscrub now to make use of the calcium abrasive on the now weakened cement/polymer residue.
- Use a squeegee to remove the slurry so you can see how you are doing, mop or wet vac the slurry up.
- Using fresh clean water, rinse the floor, mop or wet vac up the rinse water
- Polish the floor dry with an old towel.
Hope this helps
Ian
Copyright Ian Taylor and The Tile and Stone Blog.co.uk, 2013. See copyright notice above.
hi i have a problem with my porcelian high gloss tiles. i have tried lots of cleaners smear free and also a heavy duty cleaner. they seem to have as film on them and when u start to walk on them there would b footprints in like a grime in the tiles even when there dry have to wash them everynite at the minute i am using a small drop of fiary liquid and a chamois can anyone help
Hi Tracey,
Did you try a solvent? – or something like nanoscrub that is designed for these coatings? – Might be worth a go. Re the foot prints, you may be OK once the coating is removed and a sealer applied, but I have come across similar tiles where they could not be cleaned, or sealed all that effectively – hope you don’t have one of those
Ian
how do i remove the cloudiness from black porcilain tiles i have used:
Grout residue remover
tile and stone stripper
white spirit
fairy liquid
vinigar
what do i do now?
I submitted a comment but it was not published. I spent close to 40,000 dollars on a polished porcelain tile and it’s hyper absorbent! The people we purchased it from are refusing to take any responsibility. At no time of purchase or consult was the staining of this tile mentioned. My husband and I would love to know if there is any cure for this absorbencey? Everyday living is not possible as we cannot have the “stain police” on call for any random drip or spill and cooking is out of the question as oil spatters on any floor. We are so upset and feel we need to have “our day in court”…If anyone has had the same experience with polished porcelain we would appreciate hearing from them.. Thank you Deb
Hi Jo,
Sorry I thought I had answered this one.
OK, if the cloudiness is from grout residue, and it is a polymer modified grout then you may have to try a combined approach, Grout residue removers are usually acidic and work on cement. Strippers are usually solvent and work on polymers, sometimes you have to use both together.
If you use a cement remover only it may not be able to act on the cement, if it is protected by a polymer. Conversely, if you use only a solvent then it may soften any polymer but not attack the cement. An approach we often use is to first attempt to soften the polymer by applying a neat solvent (such as Sealer and Coating Remover as it does not evaporate too quickly) Leave this on for at least 30 minutes then, WITHOUT removing the solvent, add a diluted phosphoric-acid-based cement remover (or equivalent, but NOT brick acid/muriatic/Hydrochloric). This way, while the polymer is in a semi solid state, the acid can access any cement that is present. Now scrub both together for a while, mop up the solution, rinse with clean water, and perhaps repeat the process.
This is worth a go as it often works with good results.
Ian
Hi Deb,
First of all, I did publish your question, forgive me but I have to screen comments before they are published – (there is just far too much spam around for me to allow comments to auto-publish) – so I have to check them first. However, this blog is a side project, not my ‘day job’ so I can’t always answer things/check comments straight away.
OK, sorry to hear of your issues with the porcelain floor; I think I should say that before spending that amount of money on my floor I would want to make absolutely sure that the materials were exactly what was needed and up to the job. I appreciate that as a customer, you would look to the ‘expertise’ of the tile seller to guide you here, so I have some sympathy with you, but for anyone else reading about to commit to such a large investment, you might take a sample tile home and subject it to a bit of stain testing before you do.
OK, so what can be done, and where do you stand legally? Well I am not qualified to give legal advice, and as I am based in the UK not the USA I would advise you to seek advice from local legal advisers. I have to say though, that in both our countries, it is quite common for this type of problem to arise, far too common for any tile retailer worth their salt to pretend that they have never heard of it. There is a lot of confusion around the word ‘porcelain’ and different people have different understandings of what it means. For clarity, I will give a little background:
When Porcelain tiles first hit the market (must be 25 + years ago now) it could be said that in most cases they did not seed sealing (in deed most of the early Italian materials bearing this name could not be sealed, such was their density and quality). However since then global proliferation of porcelain manufacturing, international price competition and the actual polishing process used by many companies has lead to a wide variety of qualities and standards coming onto the market. I have discussed this many times before so won’t go over it again, suffice it to say that today, some porcelain does not need sealing, but a lot more does. I can understand an older tile salesperson, (say 45 years or older) who may have been in the industry since the first porcelains came out, still clinging to the original ideal that all porcelain is stain proof, but anyone who is still active from that time, must surely have come across this problem by now. A younger person working in the industry for a few years would also, in my opinion, have to have experienced this issue also. The retailer may have in all honesty, believed the tiles they sold you were OK, but I would argue that a good tile retailer should as a matter of course, satisfy him/herself that any tiles they offer are up to the task, and make it their business to know if the tiles they sell need sealing or any other treatment, before they offer them for sale – again , just my opinion.
As for what you can do, well all may not be lost. If the tiles have not stained from the grouting itself and are still clean now, then you could simply seal them with an appropriate impregnating sealer (such as Ultra Solv by Aqua Mix). This won’t affect the tile in any way but it will impart a good deal of stain resistance and repellancy – there is no such thing as ‘stain-proof’ but you will get significant stain resistance and reaction time – in other words the sealer will buy you time to attend to the spills. The other benefit is that at the same time you will seal the grout (which is usually significantly more porous than the tile) and this will help keep the grout looking cleaner for longer.
One thing to watch for is if the tile had any wax coating on them from the factory, if they did then this would need to be stripped first with an alkaline cleaner or something like nanoscrub by Aqua Mix. However, as they appear to be so absorbent, I am guessing that they are not treated like this.
Hope this is of some help
Ian
Hi
I recently had my bathroom fitted with dark charcoal shiny porcelain tiles on both the floor and the walls. Upon closer inspection, virtually all the tiles had grout marks all over them. Some had more than others, but effectively I had faint grey marks across the tiles. After talking with the supplier they said that the tiles needed to be sealed before being installed as they would absorb foreign materials. In my opinion the fitter did not seal before use.
The bathroom fitter has attempted to clean the tiles, but that failed. Then got a buffing tool, and that has also failed to remove the stains.
I would welcome your advice on whether the tiles can be saved with other products or not?
Many Thanks
Garth
Hi Garth,
OK, this is a common but difficult problem.
I really think that the article above covers the problem in quite some detail, can I suggest you re-read the article and see if the method I describe helps?
Ian
Hi Ian, Hope you might be able to shed some light on my porcelain tile issue. I have read your comments, but would like to know if you think my problem might be different.
I installed a glazed porcelain tile(made in Italy) that looks like a dark walnut, hand scraped hardwood. Before grouting, the floor looked great. After grouting, there were spots on the floor, as if drops from my grouting sponge had dried on the tile. Additionally, I had taped off a section of the tile with painters tape that was next to an unfinished stair strip so that the grout would not stain the wood. When I removed this, there was a definite line. The part where the tape had been was much duller and the rest of the floor had quite a bit of sheen to it. There was no adhesive left from the tape and the only product used was an unsanded grout. Went to the retailer and showed them pictures. They suggested that it might be haze and recommended using a heavy duty haze remover. Tried this with absolutely no success. Laundry detergent that has spilled on the floor is staining it and there is now a dull outline where my dog urinated. The store I purchased from is Floor and Décor. The manager said he looked into this and did not find anyone else commenting about this problem (of course). Said that it sounded like a sealer had been put on the floor, even suggesting that perhaps my contractor had put a sealant in the grout. I told him that I personally installed the floor, and no product other than grout that was recommended by them was used. Suggested that I contact a floor inspector. I reached out to a floor inspector and he basically told me that I would be wasting my money. Even if he thought that there was a problem with the tile or the grout, Floor and Décor would insist that it be tested in a lab. This would result in pulling up some of the tile and all of this would be on my dollar. Said it is extremely difficult to prove and I would just end up wasting my own money. He said that more than likely the glazed tile absorbed some of the polymers used in the grout, especially since it is unsanded and thus very fine. Would this cause the tile to have a sheen? Some of the drip spots almost looked like oil that had been dropped in water, with various colors showing through depending on how the light hit it. Also mentioned that dog urine is very acidic and probably also penetrated the glaze. Is it possible that the dog urine simply removed the sheen that was somehow put on during the grouting process??? At this point, I am not sure what I should do. Any suggestions you might have would be greatly appreciated. I have a glazed porcelain tile in my kitchen that has been there for 18 years and never had this problem!!
Hi Julie,
Sorry to hear of your troubles,
First thing I would say, and please don’t thinnk I am being picky, but I would like to be sure we are definatley talking about a glazed porcelain?
I say this. as often, people will quite unknowingly confuse a polished porcelain and a glazed one, and the difference is usually significant.
Polished porcelain = a standard porcelain tile which, after firing in the kiln and cooling (it is a finished product at this point) is then mechanically polished with silica carbide blocks, at the tile factory, to grind and polish the tile’s surface until very smooth and can have a glass-like polished finish – so the actual surface of the tile or the ‘body’ of the tile, is brought to a shine
Glazed porcelain = the tile is pressed, then, before firing in the kiln, a liquid or powder glaze is applied (no different to glazed crockery) then it is fired and the glaze forms a decorative layer, a few microns or even mm’s thick on the surface of the tile.
My fist instinct is to think what you have is really a polished porcelain and it is this type of tile we see more problems with, remember the polish is created by grinding away the finer particles of the tile, this gives the smooth, reflective surface, but, it can also open up/take the top off tiny, microcsopic pores, creating a surface which is shiny and smoooth to the touch and certainly to the eye, but has a micro texture that can trap dirt. This is one of the reasons many porcelain manufacturers coat the tile in a ‘transit’ wax.
I am wondering if you have perhaps the opposite probelem to what you are thinkin: instead of the shiny part of the floor being contaminated, and the bit under the tape clean, what if it is the other way around?
let me explain, if there was a trasnit wax on your tile, (there to protect the tile in transit and also to some extent, during installation) then the grouting process, and subesquent associated cleaning, could have removed all the wax, to reveal the true tile surface beneath. The ‘residue’ beneath the tape being the not yet removed wax? – It is perhaps worth just checnking this by trying to clean the edges (where it is dull still) with an alkaline cleaner, if if comes ‘clean’ and reveals the shine, then I susect you have solved the problem.
Not quite sure how to explain the part affected by dog urine, maybe just a deposit /residue from the urine that needs cleaning.
I would check this possibility out first then come back to me if it does not seem to be the case
Hope this helps
Ian
Thank you; thank you!! Although we sealed our porcelain tile before grouting, we still got terrible grout and water stains; the same story, dark grout on a light-coloured tile. After using your recommended procedure, we now have clean tiles again! We switched from a penetrating sealer to a stone enhancer and sealer, which seems to work much better. Thanks again.
I recently put in porcelain tile…I have tried the oil and water/oil test to see if stains will stay on…These tiles do not absorb these liquids…They wipe right off…So this is a good thing…My question is how do you get all the white grout dust off of the tiles and would putting one coat of a water based sealer hurt it in any way…The sealer seems to pop the color on my test tile…
Hi Pat,
OK, let’s deal with the white dust first; these are residues of a clay that is applied to the back of the tile, to stop it sticking to the rollers in the kiln. Sometimes it gets transferred to the next tile behind it in the box. Most of the time it should just dust off, occasionally it can be more stubborn, try an abrasive cream cleaner. Just occasionally it gets fused to the tile surface and if this has occurred then you need to get the re-seller back out to look at the tiles as that would be a manufacturing fault and there would be no way of removing it.
Regarding sealer, if as you say you have done a water and oil test and zero contaminant gets in then there would be no point at all in attempting to apply a sealer of any description, least of all a water based one. Sure ti pops the colour while the water is lying on the tile, but getting a sealer to bond to such a dense surface will be a different story. There needs to be some porosity and or texture in order for a sealer to penetrate/adhere.
Hope This helps
Ian
Please help!
I have porcelain tiles ALL downstairs (a massive area when you have my problem). They are not high gloss tiles, they are kinda matt but smooth and shiny at the same time but not glossy.
I hate them. They constantly have streaks and footprints no matter what I do. I’ve used and tried everything. It’s like there is a film on them but i can’t get it off. I have used steam cleaners, all sorts of products, scrubbed them. Honestly they are the bain of my life and I have tried everything. Have you any ideas how to get this film off? Using products seem to make them worse. I have most success when water is only used. But not too much water if water is left lie on them they are worse.
HELP me PLEASE
Hi Elaine
I am trying to think this through, there are several things that could cause this ‘film’
1. Grout haze – left by the tiler – usually treatable but not always
2. Transit wax – applied at the factory – again can be easy or can be virtually impossible
3. Factory applied sealer – these can be really hard to shift
4. Poor quality factory finish – but as you say they are not polished and it appears to be a film, I would discount this possibility
when you say some ‘products’ make it worse, that could be a good sign: some coatings take quite a bit of shifting/breaking down, quite often we would use a solvent-type stripper to break down a heavy coat of wax or a sealer of some kind. However sometimes the first application or two, only partially removes, or ‘damages’ the coating, making a clear streaky film go more opaque – so looking worse, this is because the type of solvents we use are a compromise between being strong enough to do the job, but not too strong so that they damage other things, or are too risky to work with etc. many people see this ‘getting worse’ effect and panic and stop, thinking they are making things worse, but if they try again, with repeated applications, making sure to observe the instructions to the letter, (things like dwell times and rinsing etc) then all of a sudden they get results. This could just be your issue.
So, it may be worth trying again but it would be better if we could more confidently identify the issue first.
Perhaps you could post or send me some pictures?
Lastly, I note you seem to be in Ireland, it might be worth you contacting a friend of mine at http://www.fha.ie
He may be able to help
Hope this helps
Ian
Referring to grout stains, which I had and nothing was removing after tile was lain. I thought vinegar because of the acidity and it’s a natural solvent and was right in my fridge. Yep, the nasty light grey stains are gone, completely, so easy and quick. Try it.
Good Tip, kind of:
The acetic acid in the red wine vinegar will react with the calcium carbonate in the fine cement haze that you are removing. It will cope with very fine films of cement, however it is very weak, on average 4-8% acetic acid. So if the film/haze is fine enough, then for sure this will help. However when it is that fine it is often possible to remove the film with just water and an abrasive pad.
The other caution I would offer is that the potential for staining with red-wine based vinegar is reasonable, if the grout is rinsed well after with water then probably not an issue. However if this was on a white grout it might be more of a consideration.
A clear vinegar would be preferable. For stubborn or thicker deposits, a proprietary cleaner (with approx 20 to 25% active phosporic acid) would be a stronger yet still safe solution.
As with all acids, make sure the surfaces being treated are not themselves sensitive to acid attack. Even red wine vinegar will destroy the surface of polished marble or limestone.
Ian
Recently has this same problem on our bathroom tiles and I just want to say thank you! Everyone else’s advice didn’t do a thing. Although it took 3 separate applications to get it all off and a lot of hard scrubbing, I am so thankful I came across your blog! If only we knew why this happened. The tiles weren’t supposed to be sealed prior to grouting, and we didn’t leave the grout on any longer than usual. I’m just thankful we were able to get it off. Thank you!
I’m having my new tile job in my living room and the other rooms now getting the same glazed porcelain, 6×24 Serso Mahogany tiles.
There are several places in the living room where good lighting or daylight shows that some installed tiles have a glaze that is mottled and etched.
It’s really bad around the places where thin set bags were setting on heavy duty plastic sheets
There are also these mottled and etched places where tile setter didn’t sponge up mortar and water mess after he set a bunch of tiles
The tile setter said that a sealer will fix this.
But I made sure that the boxes of tile said that they were glazed porcelain when I bought them, because I wanted easy maintenance without having to deal with sealing a floor every year or two.
The manufacturer also said that “this product meets or exceeds all the standards in ANSI A137.1” and the tiles looked great coming out of the box.
Could it be that the glaze is defective? Can tracking thin set powder and mortar, or the tile setter not doing a good cleaning job when he finished a section be the problem.
Something is wrong here. I’ve stopped the job. I need some help before we do any more tiling.
Anybody, please, give me some ideas.
Thanks,
Bessie
Hi Bessie,
OK, well you say mottled and etched, I doubt they are etched as that means permanent damage to the glaze. First of all, a glaze could be defective, but in this day and age I have to say it would be incredibly rare, and you would see evidence of it as the tiles came out of the box. From your other notes (the adhesive bags sitting on the tiles and the Tile setter not cleaning the grouting residue) it sounds more like a variety of residues having been left on the tile surface.
The polythene under pressure from weight of the this set bags could have imprinted some of itself onto the glaze. Not cleaning up grout residue will certainly leave a hard to remove deposit on the tile surface. If the surface of the tiles has any small nooks and crannies in it – (it can be glazed but still have some texture) then the deposits will be able to get a better grip on the surface.
The good news here is is should be cleanable.
As for “The tile setter said that a sealer will fix this” – to be honest I am astounded – there is only one ‘fix’ for grout residue – (apart from being professional enough to not create it in the first place) and that is to remove it.
I am glad you have stopped the works, which, hopefully means you have not paid the Tile setter – taking an ‘it will be fine when you seal it’ approach is simply an excuse to get himself out of there and paid before you can be made aware of how wrong that advice is (he is trying to get you to hide the mess with a sealer, which is bad enough but it won’t even do that, it will just seal it in) – because presumably he would be gone before you seal it. However what worries me further is that to suggest sealing a ‘Glazed’ porcelain shows he has zero understanding of ceramic tiles and does not know the difference between glazed and polished, where as you clearly do, yet he is the ‘expert’
So, the residues need to be removed, older grout residues could be easily removed with mild, phosphoric acid based cleaners, and they might work here so worth a try, but most modern grouts, especially those used with porcelain are loaded with polymers; these polymers have several beneficial properties but they can help the residue stick like glue to the surface and they can also help shield the cement within the residue from any acid you may use to clean them. In some cases you have to use a combination of products in order to best remove the residue
First I would try an acid based cleaner – make sure it is based on PHOSPHORIC or similar – on NO ACCOUNT use one based on HCL – or Muriatic ( I stress this as if you are going to ask your Tile setter to do this, as he should, he strikes me as a person who may well opt for such a product as he may feel it will be easier (it is stronger) – insist! – put your foot down and do not allow him near your property with Muriatic/HCL)
You may be lucky and find that a mild acid wash is all that is required, be prepared though for a slight etching or lightening of colour to the grout joints – this can be minimized as follows:
Pre-wet the floor – to wet out the grout joints – does not need to be flooded
Dilute your phos acid cleaner according to instructions (anywhere from say 1:1 up to 1:10) you should not need to use it neat, I would
typically start with say 1:5 parts water and see what happens.
Apply to the floor and leave for a couple of minutes then scrub/agitate with a scrub pad.
Pick up the dirty solution preferably with a wet vac
NOW RINSE WITH FRESH CLEAN WATER
Pick up the rinsing water with the wet vac.
That procedure is how an acid cleaner should be used.
If this does not work you may have to soften the polymers first. There are two more products you can try:
A solvent based stripper and a micro abrasive cleaner – they do different things
A solvent will slowly (it needs 20-30 minutes or longer) soften any polymer – this may be enough – if most of the make up of the reside is polymer then this may be enough on its own. If it is polymer and cement, then you can apply the solvent, leave it dwell for 30 minutes, then AND WITHOUT REMOVING THE SOLVENT FROM THE FLOOR add the dilute acid cleaner then scrub both together. The solvent will not interfere with the acid.
The micro abrasive has no chemical reaction so to speak instead it has tiny particles of calcite or similar that can be used to gently rub / scrub off residues – like an exfoliating cream for skin – it won’t scratch the tiles. It also has the ability to get into the texture of the surface.
You can try a test with each of these cleaners separately – for example, the micro abrasive cleaner alone may be all you need for the area that was beneath the thin set bags.
But worst case for the grout you may have to use a combination of all three.
If you do use all three together, then use the solvent and acid as I have mentioned then, after the acid has had a few minutes to work with the solvent and had an initial scrub, add a small amount of Micro Abrasive cleaner – now this may cause the liquid to fizz slightly as any remaining active acid will want to react with/dissolve the calcite in the cleaner – but this causes no harm, it just diverts some of the acids cleaning energy to the micro cleaner – but by this time the acid has done its job hopefully.
Scrub imedaitely
Rinse well, using the micro cleaner may necessitate more than one rinse
Buff the are dry and inspect.
Hopefully that will solve your problem,
Keep a tight eye on your Tile Setter for the rest of the job
Hope this helps
Ian
Thank you for your reply.
I’m sorry I did not mention that I noticed this mottled/etched problem on tiled floor that is yet to be grouted.
Specifically, here is my problem:
A tile setter had installed approximately 320 sq ft of glazed porcelain tile and removed his tools and bags of thin set where they had sat for about three weeks while he was on and off the job due to issues he had to resolve.
When the floors were finally cleared of all tools and bags of thin set, I thoroughly vacuumed and mopped up the floor using a two mop bucket rinse routine, changing the pair of mop water buckets several times whenever water became clouded.
After the floor had dried, I discovered that several glazed tiles were mottled/etched, spotted, and had a bucket ring from thin set powder and mixed mortar where the tools and bags of thin had been; noticeably, also, are several just-tiled areas along it’s perimeter, also mottled/etched.
I tried four times to clean these areas with Dupont’s Heavy Duty Grout Haze Remover as directed to the last step: full strength with a non-abrasive scrub pad, scrubbing hard for a full five minutes; but none of that didn’t restore the glaze look.
Sealer did improve one small spot I tried to fix, but that spot noticeably became a different shade.
Notably: I do not want to have to seal tile (sealer wears off!!); that’s the reason I chose glazed porcelain with a gloss that is supposed to be easy to maintain its looks. I like a sheen looking floor… old school… you can tell when it needs cleaning.
I’m wondering what to do next
Thanks
Hi Bessie,
OK, well it does not change too much, it still appears to me that something has been left on the tiles, by the thin set bags and also the ring you mention from the thin set bucket (you also mentioned in the first post that you had some grout residue).
You mention that sealing helps – OK, as I am sure you appreciate (and I know you don’t want a sealer anyway) a sealer on glazed porcelain is a waste of time – it is like putting a sealer on a tea cup – it won’t last 5 minutes – there are high gloss sealers available for floors but most require porosity, texture or both in order to form a bond, and even then they constantly wear away and need regular re application, but for a glazed porcelain they will wear off and look patchy in days. Besides, even if it did bond, it would be a cheap artificial (plastic looking) shine, covering up the real glaze of the tile.
Your heavy duty grout residue remover did not remove the mottled effect, I am assuming that was acid based, so that suggests that much of the mottling is not cement based.
You could still try both the solvent and micro abrasive methods I outlined in my first reply. It may be that one of these will work.
If they don’t, and there is some weird damage to the surface then there will be no way to fix it. By that I mean if the glaze has actually become damaged some how (and I am struggling to think what could have done that) then that is permanent damage to the surface and the only fix would be to replace them.
I would do a couple of small tests to try to clean with the different methods I mention but if not successful, I would suggest you get a local independent expert to come and look at them. he/she may have a microscope/viewer and be able to get a better look a the problem.
Also, have to asked the supplier of the tiles to come take a look?
Hope this helps
Ian
Hi Ian,
I just had black porcelain tiles laid in my new bathroom on the floor and one wall, but after grouting they are all smeary-looking.
I rang Tile Giant who said they should of been sealed first, but the item description says they have been pre-sealed for installation but recommend a further seal for extra protection. So why have they stained so badly with this white haze which sits under the surface of the the tile. I have read through your answers and it sounds like grout haze? But can you please simplify the 3 products to use, I’m a female who’s not even sure what solvent means!
I’m so upset my shiny new bathroom isn’t so shiny looking with all these smeared tiles everywhere, I have noticed that sunlight makes them look worse, I feel like just putting up a black-out blind up, but what a waste of what could be a beautiful bathroom.
Any help would be so very appreciated.
Yhank you
Karen
Hi karen
OK, it does sound like grout haze but it could also be that some of the coating that is on the tiles from the factory has been removed.
I wish i could simplify this as it is a question i am asked all the time, and I am also asked to make site visits and write reports on similar issues – sadly most of them do not end with a satisfactory outcome.
There are a few possibilities:
1) The factory-applied sealer did not work sufficiently well to prevent grout haze – the grout haze is now beneath the surface and may, or may not be removable
2) The factory applied sealer has been partially removed/damaged during the grouting – I have yet to see a way to fix this
3) there is a transit wax and or other coating applied to the tile again at the factory which the grouting process has partially removed
With numbers 2 and 3 I have seen a few like this, and we always seem to end up trying tor remove the coating 100% but as I have hinted the results are not often satisfactory.
So, let us hope it is just grout haze at and just under the surface, which the factory applied sealer did not completely prevent.
The issue is that there are two possible parts to modern grout that can cause the problem,
1) cement
2) polymer
Traditionally an acidic cleaner would be used – as this attacks cement. However many modern grouts are loaded with polymers. If the grout haze is largely cement – then an acidic cleaner will help. If though, there are lots of polymers then they could be encapsulating the cement and therefore providing it with protection against any acid cleaner. Or, if the residue is largely polymer and not cement, then an acid would not do anything anyway.
This is why we advocate experimenting, or testing with up to 3 different product types: Acid, Solvent and abrasive
by acid we mean a water based cleaner that has a mild, safe acid such as phosphoric acid – this is used to carefully remove fine layers of cement material – i.e grout haze.
A solvent – (well technically water is a solvent) but we mean a mineral type solvent – such as a paint stripper, or specialist sealer stripper, we also often test with things like acetone and I regularly suggest nail varnish remover – as it contains acetone and most households seem to have some
Abrasive cleaners – these are relatively new and are basically gentle detergents that contain microscopic abrasive particles, typically made from calcium so they are not hard enough to scratch a stone or tile surface but can add some cleaning ooomf to help shift stubborn dirt.
So, my procedure is to test all three independently – if an acid works – the you have largely a cement problem and you don’t need the other two, if an acid does not work but a solvent does, you have a polymer issue etc..
Sometimes though yo have a combination, cement that is protected by polymer and neither cleaner will work on their own, entirely.
In this case I suggest starting with a solvent type sealer stripper, these are applied to a test area (and this is where you could do a small test with clear nail varnish remover, in an inconspicuous area). If the haze goes away, then just go back to the shop they stock a brand of cleaners and ask for a sealer stripper.
If it does not then apply a sealer stripper anyway but let it sit for some time without drying out (20 minutes up to an hour, keep wetting with more product during that time if required).
then, WITHOUT removing the stripper, add some diluted acidic cleaner (ask for a phosphoric acid based grout haze remover – DO NOT ACCEPT ONE BASED ON HCL). Add this to the surface that is still wet with stripper – the two products will not fight each other – what we are hoping for is that the stripper has by now softened or removed sufficient polymer so as to allow the acid cleaner access to any cement – so we are attacking both at the same time – scrub hard now with a white nylon pad and then rinse and see what has been achieved.
If nothing then we come to the addition of the abrasive cleaner – all we do here is follow the procedure above for both stripper and acid, then let the acid work for a few minutes before adding some abrasive cleaner in a last ditch effort to try to boost the cleaning.
if you see some progress but not 100% then repeat the process.
Hope this helps
Good luck
Ian
Help. My problem is what is described above—new ceramic tile (matte finish). White tile. Dark brown grout (with polymer). If i try the combos you mention, will they wreck the grout that is in the joints? do I have to apply in tiny amounts and avoid touching the solution to the grout joints? I have a haze (barely visible) on many, a some are fine and some are very visible.
Thanks
Hi,
It is true that whatever chemical/technique that is used to break down fine grout haze, will do exactly the same thing to the grout joint itself- that is an an unavoidable fact I am afraid. However, the other fact is that these suggestions tend to only work on very thin films at a time, removing/damaging perhaps only microns each time.
So, think of it more like a ‘skin peel’ – if (and it is an ‘if) the approach works you would, maybe have to repeat it a couple of times to remove (or partially remove) the haze but to do deep damage to the much greater thickness in the grout you would have to make hundreds of passes. It is a little like using T-Cut on car paintwork – in that we might remove the tiniest of surface films off the actual grout in the process
That said it can alter the look/shade/colour of the grout a little, in particular a dark brown may be lightened as a result, (and it may not lighten evenly, possibly resulting in a patchy appearance) – and for this reason a test in an inconspicuous place is essential. If you test shows that it removes the film and improves the look of the tile, but slightly alters the grout negatively, then you have to choose the lesser of the two evils.
hope this helps
Ian
Hi Ian,
I have the same problem, just grouted 600×300 White glazed wall tiles with a gunmetal grey grout, sponged off and grout has entered surface of tile roughly 5mm in from edge. But not on all tiles. Can you recommend products to remove this.
Thanks for any assistance.
Kind regards Robert.
Hi
I have had my kitchen tiled with 600×600 polisheded black porcelain tiles. The day after installation we noticed several marks on half the tiles. They look like abrasion marks as if some of the grout hasn’t been wiped off or has scratched the surface (about 2cm x 1cm). They are not the conventional all-over haze that most people experience. We initially thought it was grout haze and have used LTP, HG and Lithofin products with no success (they don’t even lift off any black residue). The grout we used was charcoal colour.
The tiles are from China and we were not told about any transit wax etc. I did check that the tiles were sealed before I ordered them. I’ve used Lithofin Powerclean on a couple of the tiles and get a black residue which I assume is wax. Having done several application of Powerclean the marks do not reduce in size or intensity.Any ideas on what is the cause and is it possible to how fix it?
How can I tell if it the tile that is actually damaged e.g. not polished properly at the factory?
Thanks
Hi Robert, that does not sound good. If it is picture framing, getting in from the edge, from the tile body itself then it might be virtually impossible to remove as you will not be able to access it from above (through the glaze). If it is somehow permeating the glaze itself, then there might be a chance. You could try a phosphoric-acid based grout haze cleaner.
Hope that helps
Ian
Hi, If there is poor quality polishing from the factory, then it can show as fine swirl scratch marks beneath the surface. Sometimes there is a high shine but yet the over all finish can appear dull, a result of skipping some polishing stages before the final one – it just does not have the depth of colour.
Based on what you have said, and tried, I would call the supplier as the next step, ask a rep to come and inspect the tiles as you suspect there are issues with the quality of the finish.
Hope this helps
Ian
Hello, thanks for response. I’ve had a look at the surface and can’t see any swirly marks and overall these seems to be consistent colour. Significant progress has been made on this issue and it may be of interest of other readers. The retailer has confirmed that tiles are sealed with nano-wax with a dye which is not supposed to be removed. Mapei ultra colour plus grout was used. The marks are definitely abrasive (surface has been scratched). To me it looks as if tiler was trying to remove grout spots and I assume used aggressive pressure or something abrasive to scrub it off (he off course denies this). The retailer has tested the tiles for chemical reactions to the cleaning solutions we used subsequently but with no results. Tiler claims that the tiles are defective i.e. seal on the tile is defective which has caused the marks and is pinning the liability on the retailer. This issue has been dragging on for a couple of months and I will probably need take legal action to have the floor repaired. I need to determine is the seal is defective on the tiles. I have 2 Q’s. 1) i will need an independent expert to have a look at the tiles. Do you have any suggestion on what type of professional would be appropriate and would have enough knowledge to answer this question. and 2) how can I tell if the seal is defective?
Thanks
Hi,
Sorry to hear of your troubles. I have undertaken this type of investigation on numerous occasions – it nearly always proves inconclusive, or at least hard to prove who is at fault.
I do not like the use of dye in a coating that is intended to be part of the permanent finish – I just don’t think it can work – applying a dye to a porcelain, fired material? – This can only be to make the product darker/more black or whatever it is a botch or fix in my opinion and the ones I have seen, the colour comes out under certain conditions – but this is just my opinion.
You seem fairly sure the marks are due to abrasive – for me that could be the tiler but it could equally be the manufacturer.
the best people to test this need to be both independent and have the correct equipment, in addition to being experienced and knowledgeable
So an independent testing house like Lucideon (Stoke on trent) might be the best way to go – but it will cost of course
Hope this helps
Ian
Hi Ian
We have just had installed in our bathroom 600×600 Blanco Brillo Arista tiles. A white glazed porcelain tile. Our tiler has put them up on the walls and floor without a problem. However when he came to grout them yesterday with white grout all the tiles are showing what seems to be water staining around the edges that have been grouted.
To me it looks like water from the grout has “wicked” into the edge of the tile but the missus thinks it has absorbed through the top of the tile where grout was applied. Either way I’m sure it’s not supposed to do that. The tiler said he has never seen it before.
From what I have read glazed porcelain really shouldn’t show any water ingress. Is this something that will dry out over time? Or should we get straight back on to the retailer here in Liverpool.
Si
Hi,
I agree I wouold not expect that to happen with a porcelain, even less so with a glazed porcelain. However if it is only water then it should in theory at least dry out to normal again. If the water has something in it though, form the grout for example, then that could be left behind to form a shadow stain.
I would take some photos of it and go back to the store, tell them you are prepared to wait a week or so to see if it dries out, but at least you will have got on record that the issue happened right after grouting, so if you go back in 2 or 3 weeks with no improvement they will have to acknowledge th eissue.
Hope this helps
Ian
Thanks, I went back to the retailer yesterday. They said they had the same thing when they put up their display wall and it dried out over a week, so I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt for now.
Been reading the woes of the blog…here’s mine:
My white and black glazed porcelain tile in matte finish absorbed the hydroment blk grout which we have used every product offered…got the surface residue leaving the footprints off with laquer thinner…nothing moves or lightens the stains so we plan to remove the the whites (50 of them) and replace with new tiles…WHAT do we protect them with while grouting again? We’ve been advised to use Miracle Sealants Porous Plus sealer..a little scared since the 3M grout release we tried left terrible streaking that took steam and Soft Scrub to remove.. do not want a repeat of this heartbreak! We’ve done food stain tests on the clean surface and all wipes up well…Aqua Mix makes a veg based grout release but it will come off with each wipe of the grout sponge and we have exposure again. Need the answer…company say they tested my tile lot and there’s no problem with the tile…the store manager just blames the tiler of course…and glazed porcelain is not supposed to accept sealer….HELP..my tiler will do whatever it needs to get it done right…so WHAT do I tell him to do?
Hi Sharon,
Wow, you have looked into this in great detail and I agree a glazed porcelain should not accept any sealer, I do not think that the grout stained the actual tile, it is just sitting in the texture of the matt glaze with all the polymers in today’s grouts it is not just sitting in those tiny crevices, but sticking like glue in them – hence the difficulty on removing them.
Using a sealer MAY help though – as you only need temporary protection, as long as you can get that sealer off again afterwards.
My only suggestion is tot try a number of products on test tiles first – try the Aqua Mix one, try also a high gloss coating sealer – one that is not designed to bond to glazed tiles – it is meant to be an acrylic alternative to wax polish for things like Saltillo. I am sure Aqua Mix have one and I think others may do also – they may just sit on your tile and fill in the surface long enough to protect from grouting but then be removed with an alkaline cleaner
I would only try this on loose tiles tough, seal them, let the sealer dry, then apply some of the grout you are using and leave the residue on overnight then see how easy/difficult it is to remove, then test removal of the sealer
Hope this helps
Ian
I just had glazed white/grey porcelain tiles installed in my kitchen.I have some water spots and some light grey grout marks on my tiles I am not sure how to clean them.
Hi Marlene,
First thing I would try would be water, seriously. Water marks are formed when water that is not 100% pure is left to dry on the surface of something. Most water has impurities in it – in fact you have to go some effort to acquire pure water. So, the water drops carry within them contaminants that are dissolved or suspended – it can be any thing, traces of detergent (drops off your fingers after washing up crockery etc), traces of grease or just the normal calcium and or other minerals normally found in tap water. As the water dries/evaporates it then leaves behind these trace solutes to form a thin film or deposit on the surface. This is especially noticeable on very smooth dense surfaces, like when washing glass windows – unless you squeegee the water away or use a chamois leather or similar – you will have water marks or streaks right? Well porcelain and even glazed tiles are virtually identical to glass in this way.
So, treat your glass-like porcelain tiles, like glass – i.e when you get water on them, buff them dry – so whether it is a spot from a drip, of the whole floor after moping – don’t let them just air dry – buff the moisture away and you will take with it any impurities.
Back to the already formed spots – if water does not re-dissolve the marks, then move up the scale in terms of aggressiveness – so go to a mild neutral soapy detergent next – again rinse and then buff dry. IF that is not strong enough then go to an alkaline degreaser, after that a solvent etc. IF the contaminant is mineral based like cement then a very mild acid cleaner might be better.
IN additions there are mildly abrasive cream cleaners designed for porcelain tiles (they are not abrasive enough to scratch them) that may help
However a word of caution – my experience with porcelain has thrown up a few issues, some porcelain’s have coatings that can be affected by harsh cleaning – some of these coatings are there to protect the tile but are not that effective, some are intended to be removed after installation but prove very difficult to remove evenly, so be careful in your cleaning efforts to avoid accidentally causing a bigger problem than the one you are trying to resolve.
Hence always start with weak/mild cleaners and work up from there – and always do a test first in an inconspicuous area or on a spare tile.
Hope this helps
Ian
Help! Grey stains on white tile. This is a backsplash done with white 3×6 Ceratec ceramic glazed subway tile grouted with Ardex slate gray sanded grout. When the grout and haze were cleaned off about 2/3 of the tiles are left with a light grey stain. The other 1/3 of the tiles are bright white and look perfect. I believe there was a flaw in the glazing of the tiles. The grout isn’t quite cured yet. But when it is I need to find a way to remove the grey stains! They look dirty… But they aren’t.
Hi Frances,
OK, this may be tricky if not impossible I’m afraid. IF the tiles truly are glazed and the glaze is ‘flawed’ then that seems to suggest fine crazing and the pigment from the grout may have got into the fine cracks to give the appearance of sub-surface staining. If that is the case I doubt you will successfully remove it 100%
I would be trying an acid based grout haze cleaner – PROVIDED thee cleaner is not going to run off and come into contact with some acid sensitive surface – like a black ‘granite’ or limestone work surface for example. Also be prepare for the acid cleaner to etch (and therefore lighten the colour of ) the grout.
If it is not an actual stain, just simply a very well bonded polymer modified grout haze/residue left on the surface then a mild acid cleaner may well work. Also a micro abrasive cleaner may help (you cannot use them together as the acid cleaner will simply want to fight with the abrasive cleaner).
If you can get in touch with the Rep for Mapei in your area I know they have some good products and the guys in the Tech department know their stuff (they are based in Toronto but cover all of Canada)
Good luck
Ian
Thanks for the useful post. I will try this tomorrow.
I’m curious about one thing. You say to NOT use Hydrochloric acid. I have some hydrochloric acid that i used when restoring a chimney breast. I’m just curious why not to use that, so long as it is well diluted?
Hi, OK, well a couple of reasons why I would not recommend using HCL.
1. In many cases it is just way too strong. When we try to remove grout haze/film/bloom – whatever you wish to call it, we are trying to remove(breakdown/destroy) a very very thin film of grout, i.e the exact same material that we wish to preserve in tact as much as we can, in the joints. So it is far better to use a mild acid (given that ALL acids WILL etch and that means to some degree, DAMAGE the grout) – so we do as little damage to the surface of the grout as possible. Better then to take several goes at the film – removing even thinner slices of it if you like. Remember whatever you remove off the tile surface, you are taking the same amount off the grout joint itself – this is a type of damage, albeit deliberate, and controlled. Using a much stronger acid like HCL – no matter that it is diluted, is MUCH harder to control and so it does more damage to the grout joint. This means it is is more likely to etch more, alter the colour and surface texture even more, more likely to create pin-holes and eat away at the grout in a more visible way. IT also dissolves more cement and unless you are really good at rinsing it away properly (most people do this badly) then you end up depositing more haze on the surface. The temptation to use a strong chemical to make the job faster and in the belief that ‘stronger means easier’ more often than not proves to be a false economy – creating more issues than it solves. Bottom line is HCL cleaners are designed as brick cleaners – for removing thicker deposits of cement, this situation mainly occurs outdoors, or indoors on new-builds before filling the room with surfaces that do not go well with contact, leading me to the second reason:
2. HCL can cause serious damage to metal surfaces. There have been cases where mere contact of the FUMES alone of an HCL based cement remover caused severe corrosion. In one case, in an office, the fumes were picked up by the air con system and transported around the building – resulting in every single polished metal surface (door trims, chair parts etc) being corroded, any metal items left out, cutlery, tools etc – corroded, and thousands of £’s worth of internal damage to PC’s. That was extreme but it is just not worth the risk in my opinion.
Hope that helps
Ian
Hello,
I have a similar issue with tile that was just grouted today. It’s an ADEX brand 3×6 crackle finish subway tile used on a backsplash with dark grey unsanded grout. The tile was sealed twice with DuPont Impregnator Pro sealer twice and then waited 24 hours before grouting. During the grouting process the dark coloring has seaped into the crackle glaze. If it was a uniform discoloration it might be livable but it has stained it in a splotchy fashion.
Do you know of a cure for this?
Hi Sorry this sounds like a tough one. It comes down to the size of the ‘cracks’ in the crackle glaze. Most impregnating sealers of the type you used cannot span and fill gaps that are visible to the naked eye all that effectively. It is a matter of scale: For example, where a thick mortar mix will nicely fill up the joint between bricks, but if you tried to fill up the Grand Canyon – even with a never ending supply of the stuff you would barely coat the sides. That is a very strained analogy I know but these sealers work by coating the sides of very small gaps and pores and not even filling them,, but by reducing the ability of a crack/fissure/por etc to take in fluid. However once the crack gets past a certain size then the effect is lost. The problem is that sometimes the cracks in these crackle glazes are fine and small, other times they are bigger – too big for a sealer, rendering the sealer partially or completely ineffective. In this case a temporary, removable wax coating may have worked better.
How to improve it? – if the grout is non polymer modified then try a very mild acid grout haze cleaner (based on phosphoric acid or similar, not HCL/Muriatic). IF it is heavily polymer modified then a solvent stripper may help, if you can get a stain into these cracks then you may be able to get a cleaner into them, I cannot say how effective it may be though, worth a try, and persevering with a number attempts.
Hope this helps
Ian
Hi Ian
Thanks so much for details of cleaning. I have stained porceline tiles from Bal grout and was sold them from a top uk tile distributer being told they didnt need sealing.
I just wanted to check with you the chemicals i’m thinking of using just to make sure i’m not creating some sort of chemical bomb / noxius gas.
For the stripper: paint panther
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Painting+%26+Decorating/d150/Paint+%26+Varnish+Removers/sd2889/Paint+Panther+Paint+%26+Varnish+Remover/p15403
for the phosphoric acid cleaner: Miracle Sealants Phosphoric Acid Cleaner 946ml
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/Miracle-Sealants-Phosphoric-Acid-Cleaner-946ml/131392130292?hlpht=true&ops=true&viphx=1&_trksid=p5197.c100068.m2280&_trkparms=ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140211125758%26meid%3D122c02b49e1d4334926a5dce11275cf9%26pid%3D100068%26clkid%3D8731645792159610561&_qi=RTM2108002
Would these work? and be safe to mix on the floor?
Thanks
Matt
Hi Matt,
The phos acid cleaner looks fine (although seems expensive what size is that? I have a product for 1 lir is it a bit cheaper – search or Grout Haze Plus on Amazon) as for the stripper I don’t know that product so I am reluctant to say it will be ok. the advice given in my article was based on using two products from the same company and I knew it was fine. I suspect it will be ok, you might want to do a very small, test in a inconspicuous area first though.
Hope that helps
Ian
Hi,
Just want to say a huge thanks to Layla who recommended using Vinegar to clean the tiles.
I just had an area done in Grey Porcelain Matt Finish Tiles and it appears the tiler has left grout drip stains on some of the tiles. Anyways I have tried everything to remove them… scrubbing brush, sugar soap, laundry detergent, scouring pad without any success. The dark marks remained and looked terrible like the tile was dirty.
Finally tried some Apple Cider Vinegar with a scouring pad and the stains disappeared in seconds! Probably works even better with a stronger acid but you should try Vinegar first as I had lots of success with it.
A brand-new porcelain tile and I used a grout on it didn’t read the directions and it’s not for a high polished floor so anyways I used it and I have fives so many marks streaks on the floor it looks like water stains but it looks like it’s sealed it and it doesn’t come out tried many things can you help me out
Hi Christine,
Not entirely clear on your issue but it sounds as though there are streaks left from the grout clean up, perhaps if you can tell me what type of grout it is (polymer modified for instance) and what kinds of products/solutions you have tried, I might be able to offer some suggestions, have you tried a very mild phosphoric acid-based cleaner for example?
Hope this helps
Ian