Yet More Porcelain Tile Problems!
By Ian Taylor on Sep 18, 2008 in Porcelain
Right now we’re receiving a fair bit of email relating to the cloudy haze and appearance of porcelain tiles, especially those sourced from countries like China. Here’s one of the latest:
Question: “We have had porcelain tiles laid and there is a very distinctive cloudy appearance all over the tiles. We have tried many tile shops and tried their residue removers but with no luck. We have had a tile company come and look at our tiles and tried there solution but still no luck. We’re beginning to wonder if the tiles are faulty as we purchased them from a Chinese warehouse. Please can you help as very disappointed with them?”
Our Answer: “Hi, sorry to say that this sounds like yet another example of what is
becoming a classic problem with imported modern porcelain from certain sources. The distinctive cloudy appearance you report, is most like a grout haze.
This type of porcelain tile can have many microscopic holes (like tiny gas
bubbles – think of the holes in a loaf of bread) in the body. The polishing process removes a fine layer of the tile’s surface, just as using sand paper on wood does. This process can take the tops off some of those holes, thus exposing them, we cannot see them too easily as they are so small.
However, the grout is smeared all over the surface and some of the liquid containing cement, water, polymers and pigments) can be forced into these holes any sand in the grout would be too big). When the tiles are washed to remove the surplus grout, it can be very difficult to remove the coloured ‘grout water’ from those tiny holes.
So, it remains there and is allowed to dry. There are so many of them that when you look at the tile they all appear to merge into one – like pixels in a TV image giving an all-over cloudy or hazy appearance.
These tiles would have benefited from sealing prior to grouting but there are a number of things you can try. Given that you have tried several cleaners already, I can be fairly safe to assume you have tried a proprietary grout haze remover (acid based) so I would try one other thing, before moving on to a last-chance, combination approach.
First I would try Grout Haze Clean Up – this is actually designed to be used at the time of grouting but it can sometimes be useful at this stage also. Apply the GHCU neat and leave for about 30 minutes, scrub and rinse. This product seems to work, in gentle way, on both cement and polymers and can give surprisingly good results.
If that fails, go for the combined approach:
First apply Sealer and Coating Remover, neat spread over the affected area and leave for 30 to 40 minutes, Then, without removing the SCR, now add to the floor, some diluted Phosphoric Acid Cleaner, leave the two chemicals for another few minutes (the first product is attempting to break down any polymers present, this takes time, once it has done this there is more chance that an acid can now work on any cement present).
At this point, add some Nanoscrub – just a couple of blobs, mix it into the solution and leave again for a few more minutes (the nano particles in the product help to allow the chemicals to ‘go deeper’). Now scrub, with a white nylon pad and really try to work the mixture into the tile. Clean up the slurry and rinse well with clean water.
I hope this improves the situation, more often than not it does, but there are some situations that cannot be saved; sometimes it is not so much the grout haze, but a waxy coating (a very stubborn one) that gives this appearance (the above procedure may well help with that anyway). Other times there can be a polishing fault in the tile, in that the tile has not been correctly finished at the factory – this cannot easily be rectified.
I hope this has been helpful. If you have no joy, perhaps you could send us a picture?
lynda | Jan 19, 2009 | Reply
I have porcelain dark tiles, and as soon as I finish wasdhing them, they look worse than before – regretting!!!
donna | Aug 14, 2009 | Reply
i have a problem with my black bathroom tiles, they have gradually turned from black to light gray in the shower, at first it looks like really bad lime scale. but i can asure you i have tried every type of cleaner on the market, the tiles that dont get wet are fine,as are the white tiles along side them is this tile haze or are they faulty
karen | Jul 28, 2010 | Reply
Would like to get some advice on polished porcelain tiles. Do you remove the wax firt, then seal before you grout? Have not heard too many good things about polished porcelain tiles. Will be laying 90sq metres.
Ian Taylor | Jul 28, 2010 | Reply
Hi Karen,
Do you remove the wax first then seal before grouting? – some say yes some, some say leave the wax on, to prevent grout staining, then remove the wax after the grout has cured, then seal.
Personally I think it depends. I must say that I keep repeating the fact that sealers are not always required on porcelain, it depends on the porcelain, however, most polished porcelain with wax on it comes from a particular region of the world and most of them, at least in so far as I have experienced them, usually require sealing.
Having established that your porcelain needs sealing, you cannot seal it with the wax on. However, sometimes the wax provides a good ‘pre-grouting sealer’ as it has formed a barrier between the tile and the wet grout. In these cases I would leave the wax, then grout, then seal later as described above (that way you seal the grout also). However, I have seen some tiles where the wax is enough to prevent the sealer getting in but not enough to protect the tile from staining during grouting, I have even see a tile where the wax itself stained.
SO, I would take a spare tile, mix up some grout and spread it on that tile before you start, let it dry then try removing it – this will tell you if you are going to have any problems. If the wax keeps the tile clean – go ahead and grout with the wax on. If it stains, then thoroughly strip the wax, then seal ( I recommend something like Ultra Solv by Aqua Mix) then grout, and when the grout is cured you may seal again, this time mainly for the benefit of the grout.
Hope that helps
Ian
Debbie | Oct 12, 2010 | Reply
We have a new home. Our builder has had the tile company out due to voids under the tile which products a hollow sound. The compnay has replaced 6 and now have 11 more. The company states that up to 85% of the tile can have a void and it is common. What are your thoughts?
Ian Taylor | Oct 14, 2010 | Reply
Hi Debbie,
I am not sure of the standards and codes of practice that may apply in the US, but here in the UK and other countries, the guidelines call for as near as possible 100% coverage on floor tiles. Might be worth you contacting the Tile Council of America for their views. I would certainly question “up to 85% of the tile can have a void” – that is a ridiculous statement if, it is referring to floor tiles – it would be less of an issue on a wall (I am assuming your tiles are floor tiles?). He may be more accurate when he says it is very common – but that does not make it OK.
Tile adhesive companies, have gone to great lengths making thin bed, pourable adhesives in an attempt to make it easier to achieve a full-bed, tool designers have kept improving the notches on trowels for the same reason. Most manufacturers (of tiles and setting materials) advocate lifting the occasional tile as work progresses to check for full coverage. They also advocate ‘back-buttering’ on all larger format tiles and many natural stone materials to ensure proper contact is made by the adhesive and that no voids are left.
Apart from sounding hollow, the voids offer no support to tiles, so the tile, which is strong when properly bedded to the floor, is vulnerable over a void – drop a heavy chair-leg over a void with any force and the point-loading can be high – it has the same effect as karate-chopping a slate that is suspended over two bricks. Also, if the tiles have as little as 15% of their back surface bonded to the sub-floor as he claims is acceptable, then it makes for a potentially very weak bond – as a result it will stand up to far less movement than a properly installed tiled could cope with.
So, unless the tiles are in a decorative setting only (i.e. a kitchen splash back that is not going to get wet like a shower, or take any wear like a floor) then I would say you had every right to complain and demand the affected tiles are taken up and fixed properly, in accordance with the recommendations.
Hope that helps
Ian
Marc Sturgeon | Jan 16, 2011 | Reply
Hi
I have a similar problem resulting from the grouting of porcelain floors. I left the grout on for too long before removing and had to use some pretty heavy handed methods to remove it as it was black grout so dried rock solid. I ended up using heavy grade sandpaper and in some areas I appear to have scratched the surface of the porcelain tiles. There are quite a few tiles affected so replacing them is not really an option. Can you suggest any method that may help return the shine to the tiles?
Thanks for your help
Regards
Marc
Ian Taylor | Jan 18, 2011 | Reply
Hi Marc,
This is a problem I am afraid. I am assuming that the tiles were polished porcelain? In theory, it is possible to polish porcelain in situ, using the appropriate equipment and powders – not a DIY job I’m afraid and could be expensive. Are you based in the UK? – if so let me know and I will put you in touch with someone who can talk to you in more detail.
Ian
cath bell | Aug 24, 2011 | Reply
Hi i just moved into an new house and the polished porcelin tiles look all marked underneathe tile ,but not all the tiles are the same ,we have had 2 diffrent company,s out to try and clean them ,plus to top it all off we cant seem to get the wax off the tiles and i have floor to ceiling tiles ,please help me as i am hating them at the moment and wish i had of getting some thing diffrent .
Ian Taylor | Aug 25, 2011 | Reply
Hi Cath,
Not quite sure what tou mean when you say marked underneath? – I think you mean there are marks visible just below the surface? If so, are the marks in a kind of chequer board-pattern or grid? do they mirror the pattern on the back of the tiles? If so then you may have a real problem that ought to be refered back to the tile manufacturer.
Often tiles like these have a dusty white coating on the back, this is a release agent – a type of clay that ‘fires’ at a different temperature to both the tile and the ceramic kiln rollers – to stop the tile from fusing to the kiln as it is fired, sometimes due to the fast nature of production, and the speed with which the tiles are packed as soon as they come out of the kiln, this clay dust can be deposited from the back, onto the face of the next tile in the box. Sometimes it is just a dust and will brush off, in some situations though as things are cooling it it seems it can fuse to the face of the next tile. In other situations, there may be no dust, but the pattern of the back of one tile seems to be imprninted ‘in’ the surface of the next tile in the box. If this has happened – it is a faulty tile clear and simple and I would call the company who sold the tiles and seek their assistance as the tiles would need replacing.
With regard to the wax – again there are different types, some wipe of with a cloth, others need an alkaline cleaner and others need a solvent – only trial an error can tell, but again, there are some factory-applied wax-type coatings that have proved incredibly difficult, if not impossible to remove. It is also possible that the marks are from the still-hot tiles being stacked against each other while the ‘wax coating’ was still setting, I am speculating a bit here but the point is there could be a number of reasons for the marks and it could be combined with the wax, you may find that if you can remove he wax, the marks go too.
Try products like Strip-it (stripper) and Xtreme Clean (high alkaline) and also try a micro-abrasive like Micro Scrub.
You appear to be in Australia so I suggest you contact http://www.aqua-seal.com.au they have these products and also they will be able to give you advice over the telephone.
Hope this helps
Ian
David | Jan 12, 2012 | Reply
Hi Ian
Im just about to put some Topps Tiles – Brussells Porcelain (highly polished) 60cm X 60cm on to my kitchen floor, just have afew questions _
1- do they scracth/loose the high glossed polish easily some sites say polished porcelain tiles loose thier shine/scratch within a couple of days of being laid?
2 – do they need to be sealed -if yes what is best sealer?
3 – Once sealed will this retain the polished surface?
4 -how often will they need to be resealed?
5 -what is best product to clean tile with?
6 – is their wax on the surface that needs to be removed?
7 – is therea better alternative ?
Thanks
David
Ian Taylor | Jan 16, 2012 | Reply
Hi David, these are great questions, and I may use them as a basis of a future post if you have no objection, I will try to deal with them in order:
1- do they scracth/loose the high glossed polish easily some sites say polished porcelain tiles loose thier shine/scratch within a couple of days of being laid?
[Ian's Answer] Yes, of course they can scratch, so can any flooring material you care to think of. Diamond, the hardest, natural surface know to man, will scratch another diamond. Although most porcelain is extremely hard, hard materials such as tungsten-carbide will scratch it – (otherwise we could not cut them without a diamond wet saw) but also many naturally occuring minerals like quartz (commonely found in grit and soil ) can scratch porcelain. Porcelains also vary in quality these days, some are really tough, others less so but most would be more resistent to scratching than say polished marble, and about the same as polished granite. Use a door mat both inside and out to elimiate as much grit as possible – grit is the floor’s #1 enemy
2 – do they need to be sealed -if yes what is best sealer?
[Ian's Answer] – That is the billion dollar question – answer is: ‘Depends on the porcelain” – sorry, that is the accurate answer. My gut feeling is that, due to a number of circumstances, both economic and technical, your porcelain is more likely to be in need of sealing than not, but I cannotbe sure. Do some testing, water drops, oil, even a permanant marker pen – if they leave marks, then sealing will provide a benefit.
3 – Once sealed will this retain the polished surface?
[Ian's Answer] – Basically, no – the types of sealers we are talking about are impregnating sealers – meant to sit below the surface – in the case of porcelain though, they are really just temprarily occupying the micro pores in the surface – so they offer no protection to the actual surface itself, they just sit in the holes and prevent unwated contaminants from getting a hold in the holes instead.
If you were to put a coating sealer on then that is different, but there are not many sealers designed for use on top of polished porcelain, the few that are, in my opinion, look cheap and plasticky and are impossible to maintain effectively for the general house and home.
4 -how often will they need to be resealed?
[Ian's Answer] – depends on the tile (how much sealer is needed), the cleaning regime (harsh cleaning regimes and chemicals can quickly degrade a sealer), and on the traffic and use conditions. But anywhere from a few weeks to several years between applications
5 -what is best product to clean tile with?
[Ian's Answer] – brush/sweep with soft brush or better still swiffer type dry mop, vacuum if necesasry but be wary of trapping grit (scratching risk), routine ‘wet’ cleaning – use a mild, neutral soapy detergent. For deeper cleaning (and with a well maintained polished porcelain, deep cleaning will be mainly for the benfit of the grout) use a high alkeline cleaner designed for tiles and stone.
6 – is their wax on the surface that needs to be removed?
[Ian's Answer] – Again, it depends on the porcelain, but it is very common these days, espcially on large format, polished tiles, even more so if they are from countries like China – so my guess would be that yours are likely to have a transit wax on them.
7 – is therea better alternative ?
[Ian's Answer] – although I may have not given you the answers you would like, there are are not many alternaitves that I can think of that beat the overall performance of good porcelain, for example although yes, the do scratch, they will scratch less readily than virtually any other surface (save for carpet). The truth is all floors will scratch and wear but a good porcelain is pretty resilient.
Hope that helps
Ian
Helen | Apr 18, 2012 | Reply
Hi Ian,
Bought porcelain tiles for floor and walls. Asked tiler and store if needed removal of wax ( i couldn’t see any) and if need sealing. they said the floor tile is presealed with a wax layer on top for transport, and to reseal after grouting. Wall tiles said did not need to do anything.
Took into a topps store and they said there is no wax on them.
The tiler finished grouting today and after using wet sponge to remove excess grout, there are hazy marks all over both wall and floor tiles. I’m guessing this is the wax that is showing up now that grout and water have touched it.
Question is now everything is grouted what do i do? how do i remove the wax? do i need to seal the grout first before trying to remove the wax?
also what would be the best products to do the job. and in what order?
many thanks for your help.
Helen
Ian Taylor | Apr 19, 2012 | Reply
Hi Helen,
Sorry to hear this, I have heard this story so often it is really quite sad that the industry can’t get to grips with it.
It could be a wax residue left on the tiles, it could also be a grout haze, or it could be a partially removed factory-applied sealer, it could even be a combination of any of those. Not to criticise the tiler or Topps – but sometimes people hear about one situation and think that all porcelain is like that (in other words the Tiler, with all respect to him, may (and I only say may) think that all porcelain has a transit wax, equally the person you spoke to at Topps, may not be completely accurate either – it all depends on his/her experience and what he/she has been told. In my experience, it is often the case that the people both selling and installing the tile, do not know for sure wheather the tile is factory-sealed, waxed or neither.
There are so many possible scenarios here that it is difficult to advise, but if there was a trnasit wax (it is only there to stop tiles scratching each other in the boxes during transit) then that should have been removed before grouting, to allow a sealer, if one was required (and it is not always required). Some Tilers leave the wax on as a kind of grout’residue prevention, how well this works depends on both the tile and the wax, in other words sometimes it wokrs great, other times the pigments and cements/polymers in the grout, get throught the wax and stain the tile anyway.
My experience, (and my gut feeling) is telling me that the issue you have is actually a grout haze; tiny residue/film of the gout has become trapped in the very small surface micro pores of the porcelain. This produces the cloudy/hazey effect that appears to come from within the surface, as opposed to from upon it. If this is the case, it can be tricky to remove I have posted an indepth article on this here – click on the diagrams to a bigger view.
If it is the wax then you could try: Hot water with detergent; stronger alkaline detergent; Microscrub or a solvent like acetone or paint thinner – in that order (least aggressive to worst etc)
Hope this helps
Ian
Jess | Apr 20, 2012 | Reply
Hi there
I have just has black glossy porcelain tiles laid in my new kitchen. These were purchased from topps tiles who recommended they be also sealed once laid. We purchased the recommended polished porcelain protector (manufacturer fila home care products) and applied to the laid tiles. However despite been sealed the tiles show every water mark on them once it is mopped. In addition if you walk on the tiles tfootprints also remain on the tiles. As a result. The floor looks awful.
Can you recommend a solution? Should we reseal them with an alternative product and if so what do you recommend. In addition if resealing with a alternative is recommended do we need remove the existing sealant and if so what would you recommend.
This is most frustrating as they look great but only when wet and if you don’t walk on them which kinda defeats their purpose !
ANy advise you can give would be most appreciated
Beryl | Apr 26, 2012 | Reply
We have bought ceramic slate effect tiles. We want them sealed, but at what stage please before or after grouting?
Ian Taylor | Apr 29, 2012 | Reply
Hi Jess,
I get so many questions on polished black porcelain so you are not alone.
First of all, did your porcelain have a transit wax, and if so was it removed prior to sealing? If there was and it was not removed, this could have prevented your sealer from penetrating correctly – worth exploring.
Second, the water marks – unfortunately, the whole point of porcelain tiles it to make a ceramic tile with some of the same properties as glass – it is made from similar materials and in a similar way – (large amounts of silica fired at a high temperature makes a ceramic material that is very similar to glass). If you wash glass windows, we do not tend to leave the water to dry of its own accord, if we do we get streaks and marks. Instead we use a squeegee or chamois leather to dry the moisture away. The reason is that no water is 100% pure, it almost always has some impurities in it, (calcium etc). So on highly polished floors (even glazed and polished stone etc) it is always a good idea to dry the floor with an old towel after washing – remove the water before it dries and you won’t have the water marks or streaks. This as I say happens on most polished surfaces but it stands out on black much more – so not a fault but a characteristic of the material.
Regarding the foot marks though, this is more complex and is due to the microscopic texture that is present due to the polishing process of porcelain, my article I have some diagrams that try to explain this.
A sealer may help here, provided it can get in (i.e. no tranist wax) but it may not stop the marks altogether. Is it a falt with the tile? -Very hard to prove this but I do understand your disapointment. The good news is that over time, this issue does seem to lessen somewhat.
Hope this helps
Ian
Ian Taylor | Apr 29, 2012 | Reply
Hi, by ‘ceramic effect slate tiles’, I canot determine if they are glazed or porcelain,
If glazed they won’t need and should not be sealed. If they are porcelain, (probably unglazed) then a temporary coating sealer could help. In this case I would lay the tiles, then seal, then grout, then when the grout has cured use an alkaline cleaner to remove the temprary sealer.
If you wish you can seal the grout later with a grout sealer or if you think the tile is a little bit porous, less lkley, then use an impregnator all over the tile, prior to grouting (so in place of the coating sealer), then when the grout is cured re seal and sea the grout as well.
Hope this helps
Ian